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Post by 70spop on Aug 14, 2011 18:14:18 GMT -6
OK, I just read all the comments in this thread since my first one, an' I got more to say. FIRST, there seems to be some confusion as to what a Show Rod is. (Duh, you say ) "Show Rod" is a theme or a vibe; it's NOT just about craftsmanship or "going to the extreme". Anything that is well-crafted, highly detailed and is entered in a car show is a show rod?? HUH?!?!?! Uh... NO! Go to any car show. You'll see street rods, muscle cars, dragsters, funny cars, go-carts, choppers, restored Model Ts.... These are NOT show rods! I don't car how flawlessly it's built, how innovative it is, how much chrome and candy paint is on it - someone's latest drag car (and many of them have been entered in car shows over the years) is NOT a show rod. The So-Cal lakes racers?? Seriously??? ANYTHING can be entered in a car show. That doesn't make it a show rod. Most street rods anymore are built to "show standards". That doesn't make them show rods. Just because something is outrageous and impractical, like the pro-street pick-up that was posted, that does not make it a show rod. It's just an outrageous street machine as show car. A Show Rod should be a CAR that is/was constructed primarily to be in car shows (not for the drags, not for rod runs or parades, not restored to sit covered in a garage and accumulate 'value'), is completely or borderline impractical for actual use as a car - street or drag, and more than likely is built around some theme. Boot Hill Express, Casper's Phone Booth T, The Outhouse, Bathtub Buggy, etc. - cars like those are show rods. The Little Red Wagon, Ivo's Showboat, Roth's Yellow Fang - exhibition drag cars, NOT show rods. When it comes to models, I don't think show rods should be limited to only models of cars that were 1:1 cars. Models like the Royal Rail and Li'l Hot Dogger weren't real cars, but they epitomize the kind of far out, wacky and themed show rods that were so prevalent in the '60s and early '70s. Ed Roth's cars are show rods. Even though he built them to be functional, they were primarily built as art pieces for car shows. Tom Daniel kits: I'm partial toward the TD kits, and am glad that most of them are on the "Alpha List". MANY of them are totally show rods - Red Baron, Beer Wagon, Paddy Wagon, Pie Wagon, Garbage Truck, Jinx Express... Many of them are just drag cars - Son of Ford, Trick T, Badman. Some are in a gray area between the two - T'rantula, Bad Medicine. And some are street rods, street machines or just weird flights of fancy that happen to have hot rod engines and fat tires. I don't mind seeing any Tom Daniel kit here (though I doubt anyone thinks the Mojave Mule Chevy Luv 4x4 belongs here), but then that's a personal area of interest. And I can certainly understand the argument, "If the California Street Vette is ok, then why can't I post my MPC 1977 Vette Van model?" Valid point. I don't really consider factory experimental/show cars to be show rods - the Futura, Areovette, Pontiac Banshee, etc. To me, the "rod" part of show rod implies "non-factory", "customized", "individual-built" as opposed to corporate-built. And even giving their designers unlimited freedom, no car company is ever going to build a car around a popcorn push-cart, put it on a modified Model T chassis and drop a blown drag engine into it. TV cars are a gray area. Many were constructed around a theme and or were built in a "rod" style, so they fit in with show rods better than with other genres, but some were just mildly modified (if at all) production cars. That's probably enough for now, and all or most of what I wanted to get off my chest. ;D Brian
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Post by 70spop on Aug 14, 2011 18:50:54 GMT -6
Oh, regarding the Alpha List: I would NOT go by that as the sole determination of what a show rod is. Dave has a lot of kits in there that are at least marginal. I don't begrudge him any of his choices, though, and it's great to have the box art available. And if a person said, "It's on 'the list' so I'm posting my model", I wouldn't argue. Fair enough.
Brian
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Post by Brandon on Aug 14, 2011 19:22:38 GMT -6
I am not interested in deleting content or policing content. I would hope you guys would just handle that yourselves. That being said, I'm not against an OT area, as I don't mind looking at stuff on occasion, and those that don't want to view that stuff do not have to look. However, I would hope the focus would stay on the subject of showrods.
I know a showrod when I see one. I'm not going to try and explain it, but they have their own energy, and as much as I hate to say it, if you really have to ask, you might not understand....
I don't agree 100% with Dave's list, but there is about 90% of stuff that is on the money, and if you can't roll through them and understand what is or isn't... I dunno. Maybe folks should really take some time and really read the list entries and their contents. Absorb the information. I will say that most have a theme of some sort, such as a hot rodded vehicle that is not usually, like the garbage truck... a show version, with style....
Really take a minute and click from one page to the next, or even the contest pages... you will see and understand more than just reading other's attempts at interpretations. I think it's really quite clear, in a simple poetic sense. Like I said, I know one when I see one....
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Post by robriley on Aug 14, 2011 19:35:55 GMT -6
I agree brandon, and like you said, "if I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand." i kind of hate that saying, but it makes perfect sense here and it's absolutly 100% true in this case.
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Post by Tim Nolan on Aug 14, 2011 20:01:26 GMT -6
I agree brandon, and like you said, "if I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand." i kind of hate that saying, but it makes perfect sense here and it's absolutly 100% true in this case. Believe it or not, that quote is from Ed Roth back in the day! (of course, a zillion other people could have said it too, and with Ed's penchant for nabbing ideas..... ;D)
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Post by Tim Nolan on Aug 14, 2011 20:06:25 GMT -6
I have created a monster with this thread...... I think everyones got it now right? Wacky show rods? Impractically awesome? Sixteen blown hemis? Cragar 5-spokes....(if you like that sort of thing.... ;D) Aaaaaand....... I went into the attic tonight and dragged down a showrod kit, ONE I HAVE NOT BUILT! CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT?! YES, THERE ARE A FEW!!! Well, I've built other versions, but not this one.... I'm looking forward to building it straight from the box with some nice paint.
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Post by Starry Eyes on Aug 14, 2011 20:22:57 GMT -6
I think as soon as I clear my table with this Dune Rat , I'm gonna pull out a Hemi Howler and toss it on the bench .. same deal .. box stock with some nice paint ... what the hell ...
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Post by DVS on Aug 14, 2011 20:36:51 GMT -6
I was thinking about dusting off my Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and finishing it and then Nemo's car from The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen but now................... I don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2011 20:53:17 GMT -6
I am not interested in deleting content or policing content. I would hope you guys would just handle that yourselves. Well there went 5 pages of toilet paper! Let the inmates run the asylum... That's how we reached this point in the first place! Hmmm... Realize problem... Debate problem... Do nothing...
Problem solved... Problem solved... Problem solved... Problem Ignored! I love it when a plan comes together!The truth shall set you free... Unless I miss my guess, My truth will soon be found in the cornfield!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2011 21:31:54 GMT -6
I have created a monster with this thread...... Good civil debate is good. And we have widened the scope of this BB....but things grow and change. The fact we needed a small redirect to the original purpose of this BB is good. But I think we can widen our scope a little too. It's a good thing Tim!
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Post by Brandon on Aug 14, 2011 21:54:13 GMT -6
I am not interested in deleting content or policing content. I would hope you guys would just handle that yourselves. Well there went 5 pages of toilet paper! Let the inmates run the asylum... That's how we reached this point in the first place! Hmmm... Realize problem... Debate problem... Do nothing...
Problem solved... Problem solved... Problem solved... Problem Ignored! I love it when a plan comes together!The truth shall set you free... Unless I miss my guess, My truth will soon be found in the cornfield! Well I like the general common ground vibe we have, and had... I don't want to go around policing things like a czar, nor do I really want to frequent a place that can delete stuff on a whim.. ultimately, I would see that as a bad thing. I think an OT area would be a great help. I like Tim's spaceships and the work that goes in to them. I like Rob's drag cars, and Fred's halloween stuff, and Flounder's insanely engineered cars and things... Do they fit the showrod theme? No. Are these guys friends of mine that have other interests? Yes. Am I going to see that stuff anywhere else? No. This is the only model board I frequent. If it wasn't for this place, I probably wouldn't build models. I am not interested in anything else other than making new showrods, and helping to keep the legacy and spirit of the original ones alive... I would hope you guys, especially after these five pages, maybe understand the common good of the site, and take it upon yourself to contribute in a positive manner, instead of having Paul and I nanny you over which cars are acceptable... I'm a grown man, I have no interest in policing a website for invalid content. You guys are all grown, and have gravitated here with an interest in showrods... do your part. It's really not that hard, nor is that suggestion/request "ignoring the problem." I really don't see what is so hard to understand....
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Post by Brandon on Aug 14, 2011 22:00:25 GMT -6
Maybe this HAS just become a chat room full of collectors who don't want to/ no longer build showrods. Maybe the time spent on this board has become an acceptable activity in lieu of building, while still being able to be called a "modeler." Maybe we should pull the plug on the board and folks would have nowhere to chat and they'd go back to the bench with their newfound gobs of free time. Maybe we should only open it up once a month for discussions so people can build and not lounge around online... LOL. I'm joking... but it crossed my mind.
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Post by Brandon on Aug 14, 2011 22:32:35 GMT -6
I have created a monster with this thread...... Good civil debate is good. And we have widened the scope of this BB....but things grow and change. The fact we needed a small redirect to the original purpose of this BB is good. But I think we can widen our scope a little too. It's a good thing Tim! Dave, sometimes I wish this place had the "like" button like facebook.
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Post by Brandon on Aug 14, 2011 22:38:44 GMT -6
When I get home, maybe I will dig this out.... I had made a little more progress on it after starting with a gluebomb, but then stalled when I picked up a MIB version. I have to undo-some of what has been done and transfer it to the new hull...
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Post by stilljustharley on Aug 15, 2011 2:32:56 GMT -6
Jeez, I turn my back for five minutes and Tim gets his balls busted (hope they're mending OK Tim), we get one of the biggest threads the site has ever seen, we all agree we love showrods (even if we can't quite agree what a showrod is) and we're all pretty cool with each other's opinions.
That takes me right back to the early days of the CC1 (Tim got his balls busted then as well) when we really were one loose knit kollection of klowns who just wanted to see what lunacy the others were creating and no-one took their toys home if a build wasn't deemed to be a showrod.
Sometimes the past ain't a bad place to be!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2011 4:39:33 GMT -6
Well there went 5 pages of toilet paper! Let the inmates run the asylum... That's how we reached this point in the first place! Hmmm... Realize problem... Debate problem... Do nothing...
Problem solved... Problem solved... Problem solved... Problem Ignored! I love it when a plan comes together!The truth shall set you free... Unless I miss my guess, My truth will soon be found in the cornfield! Well I like the general common ground vibe we have, and had... I don't want to go around policing things like a czar, nor do I really want to frequent a place that can delete stuff on a whim.. ultimately, I would see that as a bad thing. I think an OT area would be a great help. I like Tim's spaceships and the work that goes in to them. I like Rob's drag cars, and Fred's halloween stuff, and Flounder's insanely engineered cars and things... Do they fit the showrod theme? No. Are these guys friends of mine that have other interests? Yes. Am I going to see that stuff anywhere else? No. This is the only model board I frequent. If it wasn't for this place, I probably wouldn't build models. I am not interested in anything else other than making new showrods, and helping to keep the legacy and spirit of the original ones alive... I would hope you guys, especially after these five pages, maybe understand the common good of the site, and take it upon yourself to contribute in a positive manner, instead of having Paul and I nanny you over which cars are acceptable... I'm a grown man, I have no interest in policing a website for invalid content. You guys are all grown, and have gravitated here with an interest in showrods... do your part. It's really not that hard, nor is that suggestion/request "ignoring the problem." I really don't see what is so hard to understand.... Brandon, I'll have more time after work, I'll explain it better then. Bill
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Post by old school modeler on Aug 15, 2011 9:09:08 GMT -6
Wow, lots of passion here, regardless of whether an OT non show rod spot is created or not, the problem still seems to be a lot of argument over terms and definitions and what goes where.
The term show rod, by its nature it isn't specific, thus the variety of interpretations stated in the posts. If you look back there were hot rods, competition cars and custom cars. Show cars evolved, which might be custom cars but most of which were built strictly for shows and were not, or even could not be driven. As the show cars branched out, they spawned the era of theme cars like the Phone Booth, Outhouse, Fire Truck, Popcorn Wagon, and others. Updating the traditional hot rod category and embracing the rod run and fun run show scene in the 70's, the term street rod evolved. Finally to bring this all together we have the art based cars, rarely built in 1:1 form (Red Baron is an example of one that was), but often the subject of models based on an artists concept. Almost all of these are definitely termed Showrods, as they usually had some kind of hot rod/competition flavor. Tom Daniel art subjects are the volume leader here thanks to the Monogram link up, but technically any model made from art fits this group, Roth Monsters, Mouse Monsters, and even all the art cars and variants made up by the model companies themselves seem to fit, like the Pyro stuff and those diecast designs by Mattel, Thom Taylor and others. The show rod term has now back integrated into the language of the overall car scene with lots of customs, street rods, and show cars alike picking up the label. Now the label is even more non specific than when it started.
Ultimately I agree with the "I know one when I see one" group vs. getting all categorical about classification and validation. The vibe on this site is cars that are unique, one off, and "out there", but there is also a strong nostalgia connection to the great customs and hot rods and the reproduction modeling of those cars. Then there are the artists among us who build their own versions of whatever they think is cool for their enjoyment and ours. Many of these guys are superb craftsmen so if you don't like the design, you gotta admire the talent. I also think just about everybody here loves a well executed hot rod, or competition car, Teresi's work as a prime example. I think all this exist fine side by side. Techniques and things like balance, stance, and "look" have common ground, go wrong and both customs and art cars look like bizzare failed experiments. On the board the intensity of art based stuff seems to pulse from time to time, and we seem to be at a recent lull, thanks Tim for reinvigorating the board overall!
Personally my shelves in this area are filled with art cars, customs, famous hot rods, model company variants, TV/Movie cars and factory concept cars. All share the common theme of unique, one off, and unusual design.
Maybe we can all just enjoy each others company and not worry so much about labels that are pretty non specific in the first place. Remember that there aren't that many of us left around. Just a few hundred on this board last I counted the members.
We are lucky to have a place where we can all converge and have a good time, learn a few things, enjoy the variety of skills and efforts going on, share things and support each other. Lets not waste energy arguing about labels that would just subdivide small numbers even further.
Happy Modeling!
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Post by donculley on Aug 15, 2011 9:43:22 GMT -6
I agree on the last few posts. I know this is a showrod site, but I didn't have any problems with seeing other kinds of builds here . I think if it was limited to specific showrods , the picture count and possibly member count would drop. Think about it. Model building is not as popular as it used to be, and there are fewer new model builders around. Maybe seeing all the different things you can do with a kit can inspire some new guys to take up the hobby. I know I've seen things here that made me want to build, restore one or cut a kit up. Ira's Deal's truck inspired me to build my 49 Ford, and seeing what you guys did for restorations back before the repops arrived got me to restore kits I never would have thought of doing before. I dont think we should alienate any builder based on what he builds. If he's building ,its a good thing ! My 8 year old by the way, got inspired by my builds and built a snap kit he got this weekend. Its a f16 Blue Angels jet, but like I said before, he building a model so its all good
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Post by Brandon on Aug 15, 2011 9:50:22 GMT -6
Well I like the general common ground vibe we have, and had... I don't want to go around policing things like a czar, nor do I really want to frequent a place that can delete stuff on a whim.. ultimately, I would see that as a bad thing. I think an OT area would be a great help. I like Tim's spaceships and the work that goes in to them. I like Rob's drag cars, and Fred's halloween stuff, and Flounder's insanely engineered cars and things... Do they fit the showrod theme? No. Are these guys friends of mine that have other interests? Yes. Am I going to see that stuff anywhere else? No. This is the only model board I frequent. If it wasn't for this place, I probably wouldn't build models. I am not interested in anything else other than making new showrods, and helping to keep the legacy and spirit of the original ones alive... I would hope you guys, especially after these five pages, maybe understand the common good of the site, and take it upon yourself to contribute in a positive manner, instead of having Paul and I nanny you over which cars are acceptable... I'm a grown man, I have no interest in policing a website for invalid content. You guys are all grown, and have gravitated here with an interest in showrods... do your part. It's really not that hard, nor is that suggestion/request "ignoring the problem." I really don't see what is so hard to understand.... Brandon, I'll have more time after work, I'll explain it better then. Bill Fair enough, but know that I aint mad atcha, and think your question was a valid one.
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Post by markus on Aug 15, 2011 9:57:18 GMT -6
thanks Tim, I agree .. I dont know how often I wrote here that there are still lots of the famous 275 unbuilt .. still waiting for these ...
I dont think that we are actually limited if we leave awayall normal production cars and concentrate on the main theme of this site ... for me the whole Showrod Theme is wide open ... for me only the famous 275 of the ShowRoom give the limits ... and these limits are very wide just by the way they are collected ! I think Dave did a very good thing making these limits very wide ... so most of us will find a place with our preferred species of Showrods ...
for example more or less all conceptcars are definitely part of it ... and not only the ones of the past ... also future ones ... unfortunately only a few models do exist ... but I never give up the hope that there will be more new kits in the future
this way the main idea is going on without destroying future developments ... we´ll have still lots to build ... only limited by our imagination .. thats why I love Brandons models
and I still want to see hightech-builds ... I know that I will never have these abilities ... but as far as possible its something to learn from and use some of the things ... just glueing plastic together and giving it some paint is not enough for me ... that was enough many years ago when I started
and we should go on showing the models of our children and grandchildren ... even if they are no Showrods ... they are our future
yesterday we started "our" first kit .. a tiny little 1/400 Heller spaceshuttle... few parts to begin with .. but he is very happy with it .. and already asking for a car kit
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Post by A.J. on Aug 15, 2011 10:37:37 GMT -6
I can't tell if it's really cold in here now or really heated...LOL!
I guess since I am one of the oldest members here I'll just say that originally this place was never meant to be another show room of models. Honestly speaking, it was originally a chat room to talk about them. That's why there is a show room and guest gallery. But in the advent of photo bucket and other such image hosting sites, there became a way for people to share their work without having to send Dave the images to post up in the Guest Gallery. The Coffin Corner has really evolved into a social network of it's own no matter how big or small. Some people only come to see the "Showrods" as they have been defined but others have built some friendships and gathered acquantances here outside the genre itself. This brings in the sharing of builds that are off topic. Yeah, maybe it's not what the original intent or the board was supposed to be but I don't believe I've read that anyone just wasted a bunch of time looking at things they didn't want to look at. I lurk here now because I like looking at the builds both finished and in process. When I open it I look to see what it is and if it's something that doesn't do anything for me I back out and go to the next. Even though I don't have time to build, I still enjoy looking at all my friend's and members builds no matter what they are.
Anyway, I think if the board was killed, it's be a bad thing and there is definitely one way to make it better if you don't like what you see. Build something you'd like to see and maybe it'll inspire somebody else to do the same.
The whole concept of "Showrods" is subject to interpretation. Most of us don't agree with the original showroom list or master list as it has been called because it is Dave's idea of what he thought fit. When I first started talking with Dave, I'd tell him about this kit or that kit and he'd be like I didn't know about that one and it'd be added to the list. When he slipped off, we were still covering a lot of territory. I'm sure there could easily be four to five hundred kits in the list but that is just my interpretation. Another thing that Dave did was he used several Aurora kits in the list but didn't have about a dozen or more others that were based on 50's and 60's show cars, show rods, or whatever you'd like to refer to them as.
As long as the board stays, I'll be a part even if it is just lurking. Good luck fellas and I hope whatever it is you are looking for that you are able to find it. If looking at some off topic builds is the worst thing you ever have to deal with then I'd say you are pretty lucky.
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Post by rustybill1960 on Aug 15, 2011 17:57:45 GMT -6
Well, I believe that "all" involved in the writings here has the "right" idea of just what a "SHOW ROD" is. Yes? And that this site , by "name" is for show rods. Yes? There are sites for what is being posted here and I suppose, that listing "other build categories", would be of help for posting those builds. YES? I like the site because of the "SHOW RODS"and I would like the "uniqueness" of that type of build to be returned. YES PLEASE!?!?!?! ;D Everyone has been "nice" about this, Everyone has been polite about this, Everyone sounds to be in agreement with this. yes? How about it Guys? What do You say? Can We return to the "ROOTS" of the site?? YES, YES,YES!!!! ;D Say, Anyone ask Dave what he thinks? Later Russ
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Post by rustybill1960 on Aug 15, 2011 18:13:53 GMT -6
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Post by Tim Nolan on Aug 15, 2011 18:35:38 GMT -6
Well, I think we've made good headway here folks, so it's probbly time to move on. Brandon, I think it's time to lock the thread buddy.
For the most part, LOT'S of good and mostly positive statements and agreements. I wasn't trying to casue a riot, but I did want to shake the bushes a bit as far as the main theme of the site.
I'm really glad Brandon opted to add the "other builds" area, I think it will keep things in check here on the main page and basically on topic.
What you do need to understand, is that I wouldn't want to see the personal side of this main page go out the window either. It's good to see birthdays honored, family stories shared, etc; All of the things that we have shared for so many years, and truly made us Brothers. As someone said, there aren't that many of us left. We surely need to stick together.
With that being said, I look forward to helping bring back the excitement that showrods have brought to us our whole lives. Thanks for all of the positive feedback gang, your a great bunch!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2011 19:27:26 GMT -6
Hey Brandon... Hope ya know I'm not mad either... But...I guess the long drawn out spiel would just be a waste of time.
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Post by RodBurNeR on Aug 15, 2011 19:36:48 GMT -6
for what it's worth....whatever happens, I will be here.
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Post by showrodjohn on Aug 15, 2011 20:33:47 GMT -6
I think Tim has acheived his goal to get more of us to build show rods. I think that the themed contests has helped this as well. I know that a few people did not like the Deals Wheels contest but it was fun to build something quick and that was different. I was in a bit of a build slump. Tim has got me to pull out the old Trantula and get it finished now. Mission accompished Tim.
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Post by robriley on Aug 15, 2011 21:48:27 GMT -6
I'm currently waiting for a showrod kit to show up in the mail. I htink that this whole thread may have just brought me out of a 1 year building slump!
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Post by Paul B. Canney on Aug 16, 2011 18:14:41 GMT -6
1st, let me apologize to Brandon for leaving this all in his lap. "All of this has happened before and it will all hapen again" Brandon is far more tolerant a person than me. I guess it's because his kids are still kids and he deals with conflicts on a regular basis. My kids have kids, so I don't have to. My fuse is way shorter than Brandons. So that makes me bad cop to Brandon's good cop. That being said, you can feel comfortable that I have read a lot of the posts in this thread, but not every word. As we've gone over this before, this recap should be easy to understand. 1. This isnt a democracy. 2. There is no voting on what is or isnt a show rod or hot rod. Deals Wheels are not, they are caricatures Low rider pickups that hop skop and jump are not either. '32 Fords can be hot rods, rat rods, show rods, drag cars etc... When in doubt.. hit the 275 If you disagree with the 275, see #'s 1 and 2 above. 3. Feel free at any time to go start your own message board if you feel this one is not being run how you think it should be run. This has been done before and many are still out there thriving. More is almost always better. There are 2 foot soldiers here and one who has all final say in everything. We discuss and decide. There has never been an open policy voting session. a few random points.... I dont "do" contests anymore. Sorry (not really) but, all the post results whining just sucked the fun out of it for me. I'll get to the gallery some day. I have last years entries, but that fun sucking really did me in. threads go the cornfield for a reason. usually its clown pms or kit selling abuse. sometimes clowns go bad. We have a band-aid for that. it takes a lot to get there, and aside from drive by's that nobody here probably knows, look around, all the clowns you know and love are all still here. Well... 'cept for 2 Canucks ... There is no banned undo button. but..... stop worrying. We are not politically correct nor incorrect. Most of us like beer girls. There wont be a beer guys section. If that is socially offensive to you, see #3 above. Dont say anything you wouldnt say to DAVE directly. (good rule to follow doncha think) He's on his 3rd bowflex, so speak wisely. wrap up: We tried the OT thing before, in fact, it was by Bob Paeth's request. It was good for a while, then it got out of control, and it was gone. THANK YOU for keeping the sig pics in line. It helps keep the place 'neat'. We're mentioned in many circles as proof that not all internet message boards are insane unruly pig pens Lastly... This looks like blue pee
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Post by Psychotic Hillbilly on Aug 17, 2011 3:35:38 GMT -6
Elvis Has Left The Building. Thank You, Thank You Very Much.
Ken...
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